A.B Yehoshua Interview in Yediot Aharonot with Yuval Plotkin,14 April 2020

A. B. Yehoshua: "Ready for death, if it is instead of a young person”

In a special interview for the holiday, A. B. Yehoshua talks about Israel's confrontation with the corona virus ("we get a pretty good grade"), about ultra-Orthodox society ("we will have to turn the Jews into Israelis") and the surprising connection between the epidemic and television ("symbolic that it started with food"). Meanwhile, the Israel Prize laureate can boast a new title: "The Zoom Master." 

Yuval Plotkin

In recent weeks, many Israelis, even complete technophobes, have acquired a new skill: communicating with each other through video conversation.  The Israeli writer A. B. Yehoshua did not miss out on this.  "I was taught what Zoom is, and now I’m a master of Zoom," he says proudly. He observed the Passover Seder alone at home, but not entirely: his daughter organized a huge virtual Seder, including many relatives, about 50 people in all.   Even so, the technological means that try to break through the loneliness fail to neutralize it completely.  At age 83, Yehoshua feels he is alone. He says so openly, at the very beginning of our conversation. "It’s not simple. I’ve been alone for three years, since my wife's death, so I’m accustomed to loneliness," he says.  "But being at home so much is hard for me and sad for me. And I’m even, as I keep saying, jealous of the dead. I envy so many friends, and of course my wife, who were spared this finale that I'm now living in." 

Finale in what sense?

"A finale for someone my age, not a finale for you. I'm talking about this experience of quarantine, of this huge epidemic and everything connected with it.   I never thought I would have this experience.”

 Since his wife Rivka (Ika) passed away in the autumn of 2016, Yehoshua has lived alone. In recent weeks, his social ties have also been reduced to phone calls, and family members are assisting him in getting groceries and food. One of the greatest   Hebrew writers of modern times, winner of nearly every award - from the Israel Prize to the Emet Prize - he is not often interviewed. And though he tends to look back and sum up his life, he still sounds alert and vigorous, retaining his curiosity and sharp critical sense.  He also has a few things to say about the present moment, the biggest epidemic in a century that all of us are grappling with.  

"I would be willing to die in place of a young person"

"I am glad  that this time we are part of humanity, and it is not  'Jewish fate', the 'Jewish problem’ or the 'Middle East conflict’ again - all those things we live with  all the time, conflicts and problems and the Holocaust," he says. "This time this experience is devoid of Jewish interest. We are an integral part of humanity. This  makes me happy." He is also impressed with the way the state is handling  the problem. "There were epidemics in all periods of history, but when we were in exile, and in the ghettos, we had a special situation as Jews, compared to others. Now we are among equals, facing the same human challenges as Finland, Sweden, Italy, and doing quite well by comparison.  As Yehoshua sees it, Israel has an advantage over many European countries: "We have an infrastructure that is ready for emergencies because of the  threat of war." 

Within our country, do you feel that the corona is unifying or divisive?

"Obviously in every country it hurts the weaker sectors more.  And it harms the elderly in particular, which is comforting in a way, because it doesn’t kill children and young people.  I, as an 83-year-old, would be willing to die in place of a young person, someone from my family or not from my family. I can accept that, even with satisfaction.  In this respect the plague shows a certain compassion. It's one thing where I see that this plague has some compassion anyway. The young people are really the future." Yehoshua has lived through the country’s entire history.  When asked if he remembers an event of this magnitude, which forced Israelis to curtail holiday activities, he returned to his childhood. "I remember the siege of Jerusalem during the War of Independence. We sat in shelters for two months," he says. "I was a 12-year-old." Although in Tel Aviv and elsewhere, life went on as usual, but in the capital everything seemed to stop. “It was a thousand times more difficult than what’s happening today, and it was also life-threatening, with the shelling and so on.  But there was a feeling that you knew where it was going and how it was going to end. Now we’re living with the unknown, but let's hope we get over it." 

"The Jews must turn into Israelis"

An issue that disturbs Yehoshua when he looks at what is happening in our country is the distancing of the ultra-Orthodox from the rest of Israeli society. "The ultra-Orthodox have paid a heavy price for their disregard, their coddled status, their disconnection from the wider culture and the media.  I really hope that after the epidemic is over, we will all make an effort to make these Jews Israeli. That's how I define it. " 

Are you actually saying that the crisis in Bnei Brak, for example, indicates something much broader? About separating the ultra-Orthodox from the rest of the state?

"Exactly, they are cut off. When they do not go to the military, or do not study English, maths and core studies - then we say, okay, we’ll go along with that.  But now, with the epidemic, that they have risked and endangered the rest of us, and severe measures must be taken to confine them in various places - I think both they and we need to think about how to make Jews into Israelis. Because the foundation of this nation is the word ‘Israel.’  In the Bible and the prayer book, we are called Israel, not Jews." "It's like what Netanyahu said in such a disgraceful way, that the leftists ‘forgot how to be Jewish.’  To tell me I forgot how to be a Jew? To say this about our people?   It’s unacceptable," Yehoshua continues.  "Then we have to strengthen Israeliness - solidarity, sovereignty and responsibility. Israeliness also includes Arab or Palestinian doctors and Druze policemen, Circassians and others.  This Israeliness must be real and valid for the ultra-Orthodox  too.”  

Do we do this through gestures of outreach, or through the power of the law?

"I think it should be done both by the power of the law and by reaching out, heart to heart, precisely because they have now been traumatized. The same is seen in Jewish communities in New York and Montreal. I'm not talking about the anti-Semitism erupting in other places.  I'm talking about them. They live with us. They are our brothers. They are our citizens. They need to strengthen their Israeli citizenship and make it equal to our citizenship in partnership and responsibility. And that is the mission that will come after all this turmoil is over. "

In recent weeks, with the Israeli economy nearly grinding to a halt and the Israelis stuck in their homes, many are saying this is the time for books.  Still, with bookstores closed, printing presses gone silent, and cell phone and TV updates flooding the mind, this statement is put to a difficult test. As for Yehoshua, with the virus spreading, the muses are also slowing down. "I read, and write a little bit. I'm in the middle of a novella that is half finished and half in my head, but to write you need some libido as well, and today there’s no libido. Who will print a book now, and when will the world of books return? For now, I'm waiting. " 

Do you think that culture, and literature in particular, have a special role to play at a time like this?

"I think it’s possible to read old books. Everyone has classics on their shelves.  I was suddenly drawn to Dostoevsky and Faulkner, whom I read a long time ago. Anyone who goes to the classics, and not only the latest books in the stores, will drink old wine and see how delicious it is. "  

Creatively, do these events inspire you, or the opposite? 

"I imagine the world will be flooded with all kinds of books and movies and TV series having to do with it.  But the fact that it is such a worldwide experience can actually hinder writing, in my opinion. It can turn it into something mechanical and technical. I don't see this epidemic as a source of inspiration for a book, that’s clear to me.  But who knows what will come out of it? There’ll surely be some who make the most of it.” 

Yehoshua offers a surprising new angle on the situation: food.  "For the last few years when you turn on the TV, no matter what network, Israeli or non-Israeli, you see programs about food, cooking shows, celebrity chefs, people eating all the time,” he says. “These are instead of literary and cultural programs.  There’s something symbolic about this plague coming from food, apparently in China someone cooked something that shouldn’t have been cooked, and out came the corona.”  This might have a positive effect on our "addiction to food,” as he puts it: "Maybe when the corona is over, they’ll cut back on these cooking shows and try some other topics.”  

Meanwhile, on social media, there’s been renewed interest in old books about plagues.  Avid readers are returning to “Blindness" by José Saramago, "The Stand" by Stephen King, and other books.  Some go all the way back to Giovanni Boccaccio's "Decameron," the 14th-century work about ten young men and women in isolation near Florence during the Black Plague who divert themselves by telling  amusing and erotic stories.  Yehoshua remarks that today, a group that large would need to get together on Zoom.  He also recommends the classic 19th-century Italian novel “The Betrothed”, by Alessandro Manzoni, set against the plague that afflicted northern Italy in 1630.  

The most talked-about book is "The Plague" by Albert Camus, whose sales have lately soared in Europe and elsewhere.  Yehoshua had taught that book more than once as a university professor, and thinks there’s something to be learned from it, but considers Camus’ “The Stranger” to be a better book.

"I would always ask: of the characters in the book, who was struck down by the plague and who managed not to be?  It turns out that all those who sought a higher  meaning in what happened, not only didn’t find one, but also died. While those who worked toward solidarity, especially the dedicated doctor Rieux, somehow survived.  So I say: solidarity, in our plague as well, is something we need to hold onto.  What it all means, ideologically and otherwise, can wait until later.  There will be a thousand articles and analyses.  Meanwhile, solidarity is the most powerful resource for withstanding this difficult experience.” 

Translated by Stuart Schoffman